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They should have several different handguns depending on the shoot I myself at 6 to 200 pounds and have a large chance by far the best pistol Ive ever shot is the 1911. The military is basing their decisions on dollars not dependability not the servicemans life! The absolute best thing that anybody can do, find a pistol that suits you that you like, get a high capacity round, and train yourself in situational awareness so you dont have to worry about shooting somebody on accident. He became an FBI agent and served in the FBI for 30 years, retiring in the position of supervisory special agent/chief division counsel. Shot placement vs. I have shot pigs, goats, and deer in several countries with rounds from .22 lr and mags, 9mm, .45 ACP and .45 colts and .44 sol and mags in handguns. But by standing a flock of sheep in that position you can make a crowd of men. I served in the USMC and in combat. For two decades, MARSOC operators have been allowed to carry custom-built Colt 1911s chambered in .45ACP. I will never personally take a life if I have the chance to stop someone with a non lethal GSW. .. maybe for some people the 45 is too much power,. Even later to the conversation but figured Id throw my ring in the hate. Alvin York was a prodigy, a natural marksman of frankly terrifying and borderline-supernatural skill. If youve ever spent anytime shooting steel then you would know which one will take someone off their feet quicker. My understanding in past test 9mms dont do well in front car windshield stops. You have bo clue what youre talking about other than maybe your steel target fell over a little easier with a heavier bullet at the range. They ability to kill. In the technical language of ballistics engineers, the standard unit of measurement for a bullets mass is grains of metal, and depending on the manufacturer, a .7.62 can weigh in at 125 grains. SGT SmallwoodUSMC/LTC SmallwoodUSArmy retired. My Kimber .45 is one of my favorite pistols EVER, but its heavy and only has 8 rounds. Let us know your thoughts in the comments below! If the first bullet ricochets off the windshield, the succeeding rounds will make it through. This recent policy change and operational change means the U.S. Marine Corps' special arm of SOCOM (U.S. Special Operations Command) has also come to terms with the debate of 9mm vs. .45ACP. That and other factors. There are an almost equal number of shootings with 9mm that are ended with one or two shots as well. Sound familiar?? Durys Gun Shop has served San Antonio and the South Texas region for half a century. There ya go compromise just carry both. After 22 years as a combat soldier, I am kind of partial to the .45 ACP, but I shoot modern, guide rod equipped with aftermarket sights, not rack guns. The SEALS sure like their 45 acp, Mark 24 pistols (HK45 compact). Going back and reading over your original post, by the by, I can only say this: Also, there are documented cases from New York and other law enforcement agencies of officers shooting criminals and having their bullets pass entirely through the criminal and striking a civilian bystander, thus wounding someone not engaged by the police officer. What do you Think of the S&W Shield? How about a test sample of exactly the same bullet weight in a high impact L.E. Larry Muhr, A little anecdote. Our PD Captain has suggested that if I wish to carry, as a civilian, that I carry a .45 cal. That meant that the tip didnt just bore straight through him, but rather that the whole length of the projectile rotated over and over through Scalises body, ripping a wider hole and distributing a bigger shock wave throughout his bones and tissue. Having had lots of time with all 3 (9mm, 40 s&w and 45acp) yes the 9 is easier to fire and carries more ammo but in my experience you need that extra ammo to stop the threat. Riley, love your artical. Shot placement, shot placement, shot placement. Massive blood loss is much more likely with deep penetration and damage to vital organs. The gun was designed prior to WW1 and its main usage was close combat in regards to trench warfare. Sawed-off Ammo Type: 12 gauge. You would think he would know a thing or two about firearms and ballistics with a title like that. Our only requirement is that you give Ammo.com appropriate credit by linking to the original article. This myth continues not because of fact, rather because of unsubstantiated statements like this. With practice almost anything is possible. If one keeps a weapon in the home for self defense, we believe that it is a duty to know the weapon inside and out and to train with it regularly. I had a Sig P320 and the recoil is not that much greater. There are a number of factors involved, including physical, psychological and physiological, but human bodies are much more durable than is commonly believed. It turns out, however, that things arent that simple. The only other way to end an adversarys life-threatening action is through circulatory collapse. I see no problem with any branch of the U.S. military using the 9mm, but they need to go back and annul the Hague Commission signing. There is enough blood within the brain at any time to support conscious, voluntary action for 10 to 15 seconds even in the event of the destruction of the heart itself. A 7.6225 is venerated as so amazing by PPsh humpers. I have formed the opinion that the 9mm is adequate, the 40 S&W is better and the 45 is best. This is pretty interesting BTW https://www.ammoland.com/2018/02/defense-against-bears-with-pistols-97-success-rate-37-incidents-by-caliber/. I have 9 mm and I own mostly 45 ACPs, I can conceal a combat Commander with a small of the back holster with shorts T-shirt and flip-flops and nobody will know its there. In response to this, ammunition makers began to design Hollowpoint bullets which would expand in the air during flight. And speed kills barriers. In the black powder days hollow points had not been invented yet and most bullets were round nose lead so the larger heavier bullet hit harder. FN DUH! Both are great bullets, but not really comparable. Police usually shoot from a distance. Its actually much more simple than most would like to think. Both really do not muster up for the Marines. I agree with your bad guy statement, but when I was training to become a Paramedic and obviously most of the training was done in the ER so we definitely saw damner everything you can imagine especially a lot of gunshot incidents and what I can tell you was that we were able to save and keep more bad guys alive who were shot with 9mm multiple times than those who had been shot 1-2 times with a .45. Give me a 45 any day! 15 round magazine is better than a 7 round magazine. Thanks for reading and commenting!! WebYes, definitely. Police1 is revolutionizing the way the law enforcement community Steel BB or 0.177" lead pellet at 200 ft/s will detach part of the coloured portion (iris) of a human eye leaving what appears to be a second pupil. Thats because the 7.62 is almost twice as massive as a .223. So for over a couple hundred years size mattered in stopping power, or say incapacitating an opponent. The difference can be seen with pistol rounds, as well. ;p, I think someone is living in Television land, get real you might have shot one or chased a couple but routinely is in make believe land, quit lying just to talk. So banter on gentlemen. The 9 mm and the round for the 9 mm is by far the cheaper not the better choice! The HRP is concerned with long-term health consequences of radiation exposure such as cancer, as well as adverse effects to the central nervous and cardiovascular systems. The latest in 9mm bullet tech performs much better than in the past on windshields. Thats my two cents for what its worth. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in New York Times reporter C.J. I am a colt Gvt. Heres what they found it did to those enemies bodies, as republished in, Bullets can also increase the surface area that transfers energy to targets by expanding, as in the case of hollow-point rounds. Hunt! Pistol calibers can work well if you dispense them from an SMG and send lots of them at a time. This is why, when training with a firearm, you should train for the center of mass, regardless of target anatomy or angle. Im in the process to actually buy one. How higher speed, greater mass, and more surface area increase the damage that rounds can do to human bodies. Walked closer and finished it with a 44 round between the eyes. According to the Marine Corps Times: For Marine special operators, the never-ending debate over whether the 9mm or .45-caliber round is the more powerful bullet has been settled. It is also a logistics factor 45 is just one more different ammo to resupply. More rounds the better. ACP cystic fluid caused growth retardation and an increased obesity index in mice, affected the expression of the Npy, Fgfr2, Rnpc3, Sst, and Pcsk1n genes that regulate growth and energy metabolism in hypothalamic neurons, and enhanced the cellular interaction of AgrpMc3r. The 45 is the preferred for close combat, Common sense will tell you that if you are being overrun! About 5 yrs ago I read a document comparing the damage to a human body wearing, at the time, state of the art LE body armor. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it hits its target with more energy. Hence poor shot placement, causing a miss or worse the poor animal suffering a slow painful unnecessary death. I think that the argument here has gone the wrong direction. So youre that guy safe at home on the computer. Your story could have just as easily gone the same way but with a Glock 21 (similar to Timothy Gramins experience). Which is better? You can either hit a target or not that simple. Ret. Which Id be inclined to think a .45 would transfer more force more immediately taking the spirit out of most. The Department of Defense has recently been taking a hard look at the sidearms and sidearm calibers issued to today's military personnel on the front lines. I seen it first hand as well. I had a neighbor when I lived outside Fort Worth. If you notice in Police shootings, the gun is usually empty after the event is over. I even tried to do the same test with my Tuger SR9 compact and it was a worse outcome than the Walther. This gave the enemy a chance to still bury a spearhead in the shooters chest, before finally collapsing from internal damage and blood loss. As to which will stop a human fasterhavent a darn clue. Projectile weapons work by transferring kinetic energy to a target, which ripples out as a shockwave through tissue as the bullet plows through the body, leaving a cavity in its wake. Supposedly he is firearms and forensic expert with the Rhode Island State Crime Laboratory. And they call themselves a forensics expert.. I havent heard anything about the M17 yet, but I am guessing that people will say at least they arent completely worn out and rattling like a kids toy, with parts falling off them, like all the M9s were.. The 45 1911 did just that. Head and neck shot were down on contact if the hit bone, flesh hit required another shot. Even after suffering multiple 9mm gunshot wounds, victims are capable of fleeing considerable distances. We have much better tools now. It is extremely difficult to shoot accurately under such pressure. Grinder: I realize this reply is way late in being posted, but I couldnt let that pass. Also another fact is that my Kimber Colt 45 actually has less recoil than my 9mm with an aluminum frame when my 9mm has a full steel from. No regrets. Tests show that while it travels at 1,154 feet per second at 500 yards, slower than the .223 at that distance, the AKs bullet can deliver 370 foot-pounds of force, more than the AR. Not aim shoot. However, it does suffer from the same issue as the .40s&w, and that is that its snappier in its recoil impulse. I carry a S&W 9SDVE which I find can hold a good tight group. At 880 fps a 230 grains projectile has 395 foot pounds of muzzle energy. There was no blood on the floor below him. After reading comments from many veterans here, and from what ive seen on the streets, in a true life or death situation give me the largest slug possible. His career began as a special agent with NCIS. Experiences on the streets say otherwise. The ambulance took him away. My point being, is animals dont always die the same. U.S. Navy SeaBees m60 & 45 caliber was my issue. Prefer a 9 mm. Im an athletic guy so handling the recoil is not too bad. The .45, for instance, is slightly slower than the 9mm, but features a more massive projectile, with 250 grains of mass compared to the 9mms typical 115 grains. In other words slower bullet JHP more energy transferred more effective. I carried an issue 45. Even a frontal gut shot must penetrate seven or more inches in slender adults for reliable incapacitation. I am aware of the ballistics of both rounds, and am a handloader. Do you really think that all of SOCOM is using rifles and SMGs, and the Marines are using pistols? Cpl. Hmmmmsince there probably wont be any takers how about we all shake hands and realize were all bound brothers with the same interest. A 50-60gr 9mm bullet that obtains 2000 fps. And while you might think that lethality by caliber is the main factor you should be looking for, the simple fact is that while a 22 rimfire is deadly, it is far from the best round for incapacitating an assailant in the here and now. Do any one you know carry just ball rounds in their handguns? It also drops in Air Drops, rarely as Tier Chest loot, or very rarely spawn as Tier World loot. The former is by far the leading reason for handgun ownership. 7.62 leads the damage potential, followed by 5.56, followed by 45 and finally 9 mm. And the quicker the better when someones fanning a gun at you. He gets there with his partner and the front door of the bus opens. If I ever have to use my firearm to defend myself or my family, I want all of the energy from that round to be expended in the target. Ill leave it at this and welcome any comments of common sense and or experience. In 1985, the US military replaced the .45 ACP with the 9mm round for its standard sidearm. WebIn real life the tissue damage of the .45 compared to the 9mm is much more and ingame atm the difference is minimal. /9mm has a lot more options when it comes to ammo but I prefer my Springfield XD .45 or my Kimber Custom II 1911. Officially last year it was announced that DoD intends to move to hollowpoint ammunition with this new MHS gun (whichever one ends up winning the contract). A 9 is a great backup. Black Talon ammunition was What a joke! When the engagement really happens and it is very fluid you are going to point shoot. So Marines are now trained to simply kill them. If the technology got better for one caliber, it got better for all of them!! WebHuman Body 101 | National Geographic National Geographic 21.2M subscribers Subscribe 52K 3.3M views 5 years ago How does the human body work? Much of the difference is Youll shoot how you train is one, but many dont train. I dont have the time to read it. Firing Modes: Semi-auto. The concern that a round will pass through an assailant and harm an innocent bystander is largely exaggerated. One hit with any caliber has more stopping power than 100 misses with any caliber, type bullet or inherent accuracy. I'd like to see the science on that one. Whether it hits the shoulder, the leg, arm, hip, whatever. I was in the military for 15 years Ive been through several handgun changes. In my book Lethal Force and the Objectively Reasonable Officer, I point out that after the FBI shootout in Miami, the FBI Firearms Training Unit, under the leadership of Unit Chief John Hall, tested 9mm, 10mm and .45 caliber rounds. During each tour I was personally involved multiple combat engagements. Following the incident, significant changes were made to the firepower carried by agents, the body armor they wore and the incident response training they received. Garand Thumb 2.84M subscribers 4.2M views 1 year ago 9mm vs 45 ACP, the age old debate and the one that I was shot with a 45acp in my right leg. Ive seen too many people want to hunt but do not have ability to take a animals life. Was the 357 mag. So they downvote actual biological functions here. I have a rock island arms 1911 45, a Walther p22 22cal., A heritage rough rider 22 6 inch barrel. So, as so many have said above, it depends on what you are comfortable with and what you plan to be doing with it. I am not old. One week later the detective in charge advised me that papa lived, walked out of the hospital and back to Mexico. People have walked off from head shot wounds from the venerable .45, .38 mag, etc. The bear was shot in the head through the screen.it was a one shot stop but needed another round to finish him off. Thats funny. Ive been training for 50+ years and continue to do so. This reasoning may not make sense to many of you, but it does to me. Handgun wounds include the first three of these factors, but generally do not include the fourth. Let me now take you back to 1987. I have used both calibers personally in combat, and I can say unequivocally and without any doubt whatsoever that the .45 cal DEFINITELY has much more knockdown power than the 9mm which due to its higher velocity tends to punch right through the assailant leaving him wounded but still on his feet and able to return fire. The temporary cavity is the hole in the target that briefly expands after immediate impact, only to collapse a fraction of a second later. 25 ft same situation, I was surprised at 50 ft when my 45 actually tore the watermelon to shreds even more so than 15 and 25ft, the 9mm remained the same, 100 ft I actually missed 3 times with my Walther q4 9mm before I hit. Theres also the reaction of a surprise. If one of these conditions occurs, the human body should induce a counterbalance in the form of an opposite condition. He taught criminal law/procedure at the FBI Academy. I think the pain element is still to much with paint balls for Obamas new policy I think dart guns with the rubber suction cups would be more his speed. .45 in Nam and owned one for several years. In most courtrooms today a good lawyer will take you apart for shooting a home invader more than one time if you hit him with the first shot in other words you wounded him with the first shot why did you keep shooting? When i was in the military in the 60s we still were using hard ball ammo and the same still applied. Did you know that Durys has been in business since 1959? Now I am a fan of 45s. I do like the capacity of the 9mm for in town carry and lighter weight than my Govt model 45s. The comments concerning shot placement are correct. I was a PA-C in the military. The 7.62 round is not as fast as the .223, the round fired by the AR-15 (Americas most popular semiautomatic rifle), but it, . As stated before, this article isnt intended to solve the stopping power debate, but only to discuss the issues it involves. It is a very real possibility and one that should be considered.